23.04.2019 21:40
[#2431]
Re: Zapowiedzi nowych gier
@selur, post #2430
Koder z niego dobry, świetny i to pokazał bardzo dobrze. Problem w tym, że wszyscy się jakoś zacietrzewiają zamiast łączyć.
Może napisał by mu ktoś jeszcze, że chciałby pomóc w grafice? Ja napisałem, ale współpraca się nie udała. Rozumiem styl nie do końca mógł mu odpowiadać. Ale może jak więcej osób by mu chciało pomóc z grafiką do tej gry to by to bardziej do niego dotarło? I zrozumiałby, że nie jest sam?
Może wszyscy się zacietrzewiamy bo dużo osób podaje "konstruktywne krytyki" w stylu "popraw to", "popraw tamto"... A może krytyka w stylu, "chłopie, dobre to jest, ale jak chcesz to ja Ci to poprawie! ;)" Ciekawe jaki by to skutek miało, może bardziej pozytywny?
Może napisał by mu ktoś jeszcze, że chciałby pomóc w grafice? Ja napisałem, ale współpraca się nie udała. Rozumiem styl nie do końca mógł mu odpowiadać. Ale może jak więcej osób by mu chciało pomóc z grafiką do tej gry to by to bardziej do niego dotarło? I zrozumiałby, że nie jest sam?
Może wszyscy się zacietrzewiamy bo dużo osób podaje "konstruktywne krytyki" w stylu "popraw to", "popraw tamto"... A może krytyka w stylu, "chłopie, dobre to jest, ale jak chcesz to ja Ci to poprawie! ;)" Ciekawe jaki by to skutek miało, może bardziej pozytywny?
23.04.2019 22:12
[#2434]
Re: Zapowiedzi nowych gier
@MarcinLP, post #2429
if i was selling the game and you were a customer then it would matter.
The game is free and the only opinion that matters are mine and the development team who help me with the game. Sometimes, i ask for opinions, and understand the game or its graphics are not to everyones taste. There are genre’s of games that i cant stand, not because they are bad games its just i dont like them.
For example, i cant stand games such as street fighter, sonic the hedgehog, i absolutely hate superfrog and pretty much any game by team 17.
Its just my opinion. For the graphics this is the only place that are complaining about them, so for my current stats i probably have 5 dislikes of graphics versus 300 likes.
I can live with that.
The game is free and the only opinion that matters are mine and the development team who help me with the game. Sometimes, i ask for opinions, and understand the game or its graphics are not to everyones taste. There are genre’s of games that i cant stand, not because they are bad games its just i dont like them.
For example, i cant stand games such as street fighter, sonic the hedgehog, i absolutely hate superfrog and pretty much any game by team 17.
Its just my opinion. For the graphics this is the only place that are complaining about them, so for my current stats i probably have 5 dislikes of graphics versus 300 likes.
I can live with that.
23.04.2019 22:26
[#2436]
Re: Zapowiedzi nowych gier
@mcgeezer, post #2434
It seems to me that we are all unnecessarily arguing. You have very good skills and showed them very well.
Usually when I work on the part I do it for a specific purpose. Many people seeing the potential you put in the Rigar project think that you did it to show that you can do a good game. A lot of people feel unsatisfied and are upset that it happened just like that.
I respect your contribution to this project, technically it's great! Do not be nervous for the criticism. You have great potential, please use it to make another project for Amiga.
Usually when I work on the part I do it for a specific purpose. Many people seeing the potential you put in the Rigar project think that you did it to show that you can do a good game. A lot of people feel unsatisfied and are upset that it happened just like that.
I respect your contribution to this project, technically it's great! Do not be nervous for the criticism. You have great potential, please use it to make another project for Amiga.
23.04.2019 22:45
[#2438]
Re: Zapowiedzi nowych gier
@mcgeezer, post #2437
I love rygar, i love bomb jack, i love the amiga, i love coding so i put them all together.
Yes, you could have pointed it out from the very beginning. There would be no problem that you would be understood so differently. The fact that you are having fun doing these projects is also a good reason. Nevertheless, it must be taken into account that it will arouse jealousy;)
24.04.2019 05:59
[#2439]
Re: Zapowiedzi nowych gier
@Koyot1222, post #2438
And this is exactly what I meant. I appreciate mcgeezer's hard work. He did a great engine but he should clearly state the aim and his likes during the process and "promotion". Instead all I see is to mention AGA game which does not look AGA. Most people (these 95% of people) do not understand all the techincalities. EAB is a little strange places when it comes to critisism. They praise good things and damn good titles. Lemon scores and comments are a little more objective and in many titles which were praised on EAB they got a strong slap in the face on Lemon.
24.04.2019 07:48
[#2440]
Re: Zapowiedzi nowych gier
@mailman, post #2428
Please, read my post once again in order to fully understand what I meant.
I'm reading over and over and something popup every time, and it's...
You are simply repeating yourself and twisting around my words.
Really?
#2158
The graphics does not look like AGA at all.
#2167
I can't see nothing that requires AGA
#2422
more people expect "to see AGA in AGA"
#2438
all I see is to mention AGA game which does not look AGA
So, we both repeating same sentences: You about not seeing AGA and not understanding why it requires AGA, me about why this game requires AGA and that i see these requirements.
And maybe let's finish this topic here, because we never get similar opinion.
Ostatnia aktualizacja: 24.04.2019 07:50:51 przez Solo Kazuki
24.04.2019 07:55
[#2441]
Re: Zapowiedzi nowych gier
@mailman, post #2439
And I understand it too. The problem is that there is no rigid definition of the AGA game. I'm not an outstanding expert in Amiga games, but for me, in general, all OCS / AGA games have one main rule:
The main graphics in the OCS / AGA games were the same with the difference that in the OCS version the game did not have a colored background in the background. The mechanics of these games, regardless of the version, were identical.
The first example from the edge of Brian the lion or Fire & ice etc.
It seems to me that the topic of Rigar can be left alone because the creator wanted to create Rigar on the Amiga and he succeeded. It is technically the most advanced conversion that has seen the light of day. The author is happy with it and it is good.
A similar thing when we did Tanks Furry, we were also happy with the effect, despite the allegations about the secondaryity of the idea.
Ostatnia aktualizacja: 24.04.2019 07:56:12 przez Koyot1222
The main graphics in the OCS / AGA games were the same with the difference that in the OCS version the game did not have a colored background in the background. The mechanics of these games, regardless of the version, were identical.
The first example from the edge of Brian the lion or Fire & ice etc.
It seems to me that the topic of Rigar can be left alone because the creator wanted to create Rigar on the Amiga and he succeeded. It is technically the most advanced conversion that has seen the light of day. The author is happy with it and it is good.
A similar thing when we did Tanks Furry, we were also happy with the effect, despite the allegations about the secondaryity of the idea.
Ostatnia aktualizacja: 24.04.2019 07:56:12 przez Koyot1222
24.04.2019 08:11
[#2442]
Re: Zapowiedzi nowych gier
@Koyot1222, post #2441
True, many AGA version is different from OCS only by backgrounds. AGA has more potential, but it's just "upgraded ECS". So sometimes it's hard to tell which game "looks like AGA". Let's compare, for example, mentioned in #2423 Ali Baba (which requires AGA) and Ruff 'n' Tumble. It will be hard to find someone who claims that Ali Baba looks better than R'n'T, but requirements should suggest this.
Sure, Rygar AGA could be with better graphic. But remember that's arcade conversion and there is already some upgrades (cooper sky and water, better looking magma, etc). Maybe it's not that exposed, but game have already too much colors and objects for OCS/ECS. Compare some alpha Rygar versions for OCS/ECS - there is less colors, less objects and some other cut downs.
Sure, Rygar AGA could be with better graphic. But remember that's arcade conversion and there is already some upgrades (cooper sky and water, better looking magma, etc). Maybe it's not that exposed, but game have already too much colors and objects for OCS/ECS. Compare some alpha Rygar versions for OCS/ECS - there is less colors, less objects and some other cut downs.
24.04.2019 23:52
[#2443]
Re: Zapowiedzi nowych gier
@Solo Kazuki, post #2442
With AGA you get 4 things which make a massive difference.
But I have a question, it looks like people are saying... "it doesn't look AGA"? Tell me then, what do you expect an AGA game to look like? Perhaps give me an example. Is it really not the issue that you expect the game as you see it now to run on the OCS/ECS hardware? If so, then read on.
AGA has four distinct advantages over the OCS/ECS Amiga's and each one means that Rygar will run at 50 frames per second and look much closer to the arcade, if you remove any one of these three advantages then the game as it is cannot run on OCS/ECS.
First advantage... memory.
AGA provides 2Mb of Chip ram in it's stock configuration, the game needs pretty much all of this to run. The sprites on their own take up 500Kb, the Tiles take up 160Kb, the game code is currently 156Kb... right there that rules out an OCS machine with a stock 512Kb of ram, add on top the sound and music which is 300Kb that then starts to rule out ECS machine with 1Mb of ram.
Second advantage... Sprite hardware.
The game footage you've seen in my videos will show you that it never slows down. The reason for this is that the engine priorities on using hardware sprites which frees up the blitter. With an AGA machine we get 12 free hardware sprites, 4 in the upper zone, 4 in the mid zone and 4 in the lower zone. All other sprites are using the Blitter. The key difference between OCS and AGA with hardware sprites are the sizes, we can have 32x256 sized sprites on AGA, but OCS is limited to 16x256, this halves the available sprites.
Third reason... CPU.
Stock AGA machines are equipped with a 68020 running at 14Mhz, and an OCS machine is running a 68000 at 7Mhz... because it's stock both CPU's contend with the blitter...but... there's a massive difference in that the 68020 has an onboard cache which in Rygar is used extensively.... all of the routines are optimised to run in the 256 byte cache to make optimal speed.
Fourth reason....(and this is the big one).... Bitplanes/Colours.
Much of the criticism here is around the graphics/colours. As you probably know they are taken from the arcade board which can have 128 independent colours per sprite, however that doesn't matter. OCS machines are limited to 64 colours or 6 bitplanes. So possible configurations are 16 colour foreground and 4 colour background, 8 colour foregrounds and 8 colour backgrounds or do something like Risky Woods and have a 32 colour foreground with a 16 colour repeating sprite background - this however eats pretty much all resources on the OCS.
With AGA, we have double OCS... so 8 bitplanes, meaning a 16 colour foreground and 16 colour background, or 32 colour foreground and 8 colour background (this is the mode Rygar uses).
Now if you think of the arcade, it can display 128 colours for any sprite... the reason the AGA Rygar sprites are so shit colour wise is because all of those sprites and tiles have to mixed down to 32 colours - for everything, the sprites operate across levels so you can't enhance colours for one level and then enhance for another - that is impossible.
So live with what the game is and appreciate the graphics that are running on AGA, a lot of work has gone into it and if I thought the graphics could be improved with a marginal amount of time then I would have had someone do it (i'm not short on offers).
A man's got to know his limitations (Dirty Harry).
Hopefully.... this might add some clarity for the uninitiated but opinionated.
Geezer
Ostatnia aktualizacja: 24.04.2019 23:53:22 przez mcgeezer
Ostatnia aktualizacja: 24.04.2019 23:54:12 przez mcgeezer
But I have a question, it looks like people are saying... "it doesn't look AGA"? Tell me then, what do you expect an AGA game to look like? Perhaps give me an example. Is it really not the issue that you expect the game as you see it now to run on the OCS/ECS hardware? If so, then read on.
AGA has four distinct advantages over the OCS/ECS Amiga's and each one means that Rygar will run at 50 frames per second and look much closer to the arcade, if you remove any one of these three advantages then the game as it is cannot run on OCS/ECS.
First advantage... memory.
AGA provides 2Mb of Chip ram in it's stock configuration, the game needs pretty much all of this to run. The sprites on their own take up 500Kb, the Tiles take up 160Kb, the game code is currently 156Kb... right there that rules out an OCS machine with a stock 512Kb of ram, add on top the sound and music which is 300Kb that then starts to rule out ECS machine with 1Mb of ram.
Second advantage... Sprite hardware.
The game footage you've seen in my videos will show you that it never slows down. The reason for this is that the engine priorities on using hardware sprites which frees up the blitter. With an AGA machine we get 12 free hardware sprites, 4 in the upper zone, 4 in the mid zone and 4 in the lower zone. All other sprites are using the Blitter. The key difference between OCS and AGA with hardware sprites are the sizes, we can have 32x256 sized sprites on AGA, but OCS is limited to 16x256, this halves the available sprites.
Third reason... CPU.
Stock AGA machines are equipped with a 68020 running at 14Mhz, and an OCS machine is running a 68000 at 7Mhz... because it's stock both CPU's contend with the blitter...but... there's a massive difference in that the 68020 has an onboard cache which in Rygar is used extensively.... all of the routines are optimised to run in the 256 byte cache to make optimal speed.
Fourth reason....(and this is the big one).... Bitplanes/Colours.
Much of the criticism here is around the graphics/colours. As you probably know they are taken from the arcade board which can have 128 independent colours per sprite, however that doesn't matter. OCS machines are limited to 64 colours or 6 bitplanes. So possible configurations are 16 colour foreground and 4 colour background, 8 colour foregrounds and 8 colour backgrounds or do something like Risky Woods and have a 32 colour foreground with a 16 colour repeating sprite background - this however eats pretty much all resources on the OCS.
With AGA, we have double OCS... so 8 bitplanes, meaning a 16 colour foreground and 16 colour background, or 32 colour foreground and 8 colour background (this is the mode Rygar uses).
Now if you think of the arcade, it can display 128 colours for any sprite... the reason the AGA Rygar sprites are so shit colour wise is because all of those sprites and tiles have to mixed down to 32 colours - for everything, the sprites operate across levels so you can't enhance colours for one level and then enhance for another - that is impossible.
So live with what the game is and appreciate the graphics that are running on AGA, a lot of work has gone into it and if I thought the graphics could be improved with a marginal amount of time then I would have had someone do it (i'm not short on offers).
A man's got to know his limitations (Dirty Harry).
Hopefully.... this might add some clarity for the uninitiated but opinionated.
Geezer
Ostatnia aktualizacja: 24.04.2019 23:53:22 przez mcgeezer
Ostatnia aktualizacja: 24.04.2019 23:54:12 przez mcgeezer
25.04.2019 06:31
[#2444]
Re: Zapowiedzi nowych gier
@mcgeezer, post #2443
I like Your project for what it is and I do not expect nothing more or less.
In my opinion it is going to be great conversion :)
It is Your game and You will make it on Your own terms.
As someone say above - there are many people with even more opinions, You will not please everybody. Just do what You like in a way You like.
In my opinion it is going to be great conversion :)
It is Your game and You will make it on Your own terms.
As someone say above - there are many people with even more opinions, You will not please everybody. Just do what You like in a way You like.
28.04.2019 09:40
[#2450]
Re: Zapowiedzi nowych gier
@Solo Kazuki, post #2424
Powstaje klon znanej z 8-bit gry H.E.R.O.
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jednocześnie cały czas powstaje (bardzo powoli) następny klon pod nazwą Jet Hunt.
Autor pomimo że tworzy grę już kilka lat (!) to zamierza ją niedługo skończyć.
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jednocześnie cały czas powstaje (bardzo powoli) następny klon pod nazwą Jet Hunt.
Autor pomimo że tworzy grę już kilka lat (!) to zamierza ją niedługo skończyć.
28.04.2019 20:14
[#2452]
Re: Zapowiedzi nowych gier
@mcgeezer, post #2443
With casual person comes casual judgement as the "bowel works" are not of their concern in providing opinion. To come to understandment with viewer's processing tract you have to reject any technical knowledge and focus on the surface like judging the book from the cover. Utilisation of a hardware perks is kind of mild insight for persuasio even though it's interesting. AGA game looks like AGA game when it's appearance comes close to "typical" 256 colours games akin to Arcade and PC games or with exceptionally well palette choice and it's utilisation, for example, Ruff'n'Tumble game may confuse people for it being an AGA only title, the other game that is a pinnacle of ECS breath is Lion Heart.
The graphics would propably appear more persuasive if they'd be redrawn from the scratch instead of mixing down the colours.
Ostatnia aktualizacja: 28.04.2019 20:22:50 przez sanjyuubi
The graphics would propably appear more persuasive if they'd be redrawn from the scratch instead of mixing down the colours.
Ostatnia aktualizacja: 28.04.2019 20:22:50 przez sanjyuubi
29.04.2019 12:46
[#2454]
Re: Zapowiedzi nowych gier
@mcgeezer, post #2453
I'm merely referring to your question of defining how an AGA game would look like. It's all in the eye of beholder and very often for a common folk it is not uncommon to judge the work how it looks like in the end by omitting completely the technical backdrop and utensils, a bit ignorant at some angle, but how can anyone blame them if the only sense of perception involved is their sight. It's even in the statement - "it doesn't LOOK like AGA", not "it doesn't WORK like AGA". Having to know how audience's perception works, it's almost sure bet to say, that redrawing graphics would result in opinion change.
If an ECS game would push A1200's approx. 4x faster hardware, that would be the very embodiment of paradox. The games i mentioned are vibrant enough to be mistaken for AGA games when it comes to visual qualities which is a dominating factor when it comes to how AGA games are usually perceived. It's not really surprising, but as shallow as this may be, AGA is almost mere synonym for better graphics for most of us.
Not that it really matters if the game's dripping with the juice.
Neither of the games you have mentioned would push an A1200.
If an ECS game would push A1200's approx. 4x faster hardware, that would be the very embodiment of paradox. The games i mentioned are vibrant enough to be mistaken for AGA games when it comes to visual qualities which is a dominating factor when it comes to how AGA games are usually perceived. It's not really surprising, but as shallow as this may be, AGA is almost mere synonym for better graphics for most of us.
Not that it really matters if the game's dripping with the juice.
Skończona!